Ep. 42: Hood Wellness with Tamela Julia Gordon, Pt. 1
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Show Notes :
In this conversation, I am joined by Tamela Julia Gordon, a writer and editor from New York. Tamela Julia Gordon’s book, Hood Wellness: Tales of Communal Care from People Who Drowned on Dry Land has been met with critical acclaim, earning a starred Kirkus Review. Tamela’s currently working on her second book and splitting her time between Harlem and Miami.
Tamela and I explore layers centered on Community Care, Authenticity and staying rooted in the truth of your work, and honoring your community as well as your capacity as we navigate these aspects. We also talk about the need to be within community with those who see, hear, and honor us.
Stay tuned for part 2 of this conversation.
Tune in to hear all about:
The importance of community care
Tamela shares her journey of writing 'Hood Wellness' and the process of reconciling her own experiences.
The conversation highlights the limitations of anti-racism work and the importance of authentic and community-centered approaches to activism and self-care.
Promoting a book while maintaining integrity and authenticity can be challenging.
Working at your own capacity in activism.
Resources:
Order Tamela’s Book: Hood Wellness: Tales of Communal Care from People Who Drowned on Dry Land
Tamela’s Instagram: @shewritestolive
Connect & Support :
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Ep. 42 Hood Wellness W/ Tamela Julia Gordon
Weeze (00:00)
Hello, y 'all, and welcome back to According to Weez the podcast. I gotta say, I'm pretty jazzed because this is my first episode back, and I have a guest, and my guest, I don't know that there are words for quite how highly I regard this guest. There probably are, and they are an author and a writer and an amazing one, and so they could find them. I just like to pretend I'm a wordsmith, but.
I say that more so to say that they, have y 'all ever met somebody who immediately you're like, dang, like this, this soul is an amazing soul. Like this is a person that I have to know. Like their energy is amazing. Their vibe is amazing. Just the way that they move through the world makes me have to know them. That, that is Tammy. Tammy is a person that you just have to know.
and your sphere, your life is just better every time you cross paths with her. On top of that, she is a brilliant human and a phenomenal author and we will be talking about her book. But mostly, I'm just excited to be here with you. Hey, boo.
Tamela Julia Gordon (01:12)
Hi, yeah, thank you so much for that. That is so nice.
Weeze (01:16)
You are so New York and I hate it sometimes.
Tamela Julia Gordon (01:21)
I could have said something better, but it's from my heart. Thank you.
Weeze (01:27)
I know. That's why I said that was so New York, because it was like three words, but it was so good. That was really nice. Like, I felt it every bit.
Tamela Julia Gordon (01:35)
Felt Seen Respect
Weeze (01:40)
I also, though, should preface that we met each other in a comment section. America hates his comment section. And then somehow it became us banging on the purveyor of that account, the wonderful human that runs that account, and being like, not you keeping us from each other.
Tamela Julia Gordon (02:02)
Right? Yeah, and then we met face to face. Yeah.
Weeze (02:07)
That was my little shout out to America Hates Us. And then, yes. If y 'all don't know, Tammy also gave a TED Talk on the same stage that I gave a TED Talk on. And kind of a perfect segue. So Tammy, your TED Talk was, I'm curious to know actually before we get into the book, did you write the book and then from there you realized it was like, you were like, damn, I need to make sure that.
everybody hears about community care and hood wellness? Or has it always been something that has been on your spirit and been on your mind and been kind of your guiding light? And it was more just like, okay, wherever I can talk about it, I talk about it.
Tamela Julia Gordon (02:53)
Yeah, you know, it's more like, it's always been a thing. Hood Wellness, I started working on it back in 2019. And I just put up a post earlier, it's like four years of the day when I finished the book proposal of the idea. And it looks nothing like what is in the book now because it got to evolve so much.
But you know what's so funny? The funny thing about the TED Talk is that, you know, I said no the first couple of times I was asked because I've always looked at it like, TED Talks are for talkers, for, you know, speakers, for platforms and things like that. As a writer, you know, it's, I'm on the page. I'm not really in a microphone and I love performance art, but it...
Weeze (03:32)
Really?
Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (03:50)
It wasn't, I wouldn't really call it that. So I really wasn't, I don't really say yes, cause I said, wow, that really pairs with my book. I like that. But the wild thing about the tech talk is you got to promote it. So I do this thing to promote my book. And now I did this thing that I got to promote that promotes my book. I was like, damn bro, they got me. They got me.
Weeze (04:05)
Yeah.
They got us all.
Tamela Julia Gordon (04:19)
You feel me right? Because I'm not really built to promote this, especially right now. I love what I said. I meant everything that I said. But in light of things that happen with that organization, as well as what's going on now globally, it's just not in alignment with any direction that I'm going in. It's like, I'm always trying to figure out if it can even fit in somewhere. And it never does. You know what I mean?
Weeze (04:28)
Yeah.
huh. huh.
Tamela Julia Gordon (04:48)
It's just this thing that I did, great lighting, wonderful gowns, beautiful photos. You know what I mean? I think we just got the photos back, little things like that. But I mean, it was good snacks too. Remember the snacks? They were very cute, heart -shaped cheese and whatnot. I respect them for that. Was, okay, was it worth the flight? Baby, I don't know. Yeah.
Weeze (05:00)
We, yeah, they were good, yeah. Yeah, they fed us well.
See, this is what's not fair though, can we pause real quick? Because your facial expressions are not being captured, so I feel like...
I'm gonna have to sit like this while you continue. Continue.
You know, we're going to have to have Elizabeth on and we're going to have a TED Talk about a TED Talk for another time.
Tamela Julia Gordon (05:29)
No, for real, dead ass, right? A TED Talk about TED Talks because it's, there's what it is and then there's what you experience. And, you know, I love that I got to talk my shit and that there's footage of it. That's always cool. But I mean, I got Instagram lives that got more views than my TED Talk. You know what I mean? So I can't imagine.
Weeze (05:33)
Yeah.
-huh.
Yeah. Right.
Say that.
Tamela Julia Gordon (05:58)
splicing this video up. I don't con - I don't wanna talk about new shit at this point. You know what I mean? I'm not reduced to this 10 minute message about my platform.
Weeze (06:03)
Yeah, yeah, it's, I do. Yeah, I love that you said that, because the biggest thing for me has really been sitting with this question. This has been my question for 2024. And this is a tangent, and I know this will happen with us, but we'll get back to the book and community care. What level of hypocrisy am I willing to live with every single day?
Tamela Julia Gordon (06:19)
Go off. Go off.
Weeze (06:27)
being a person who is so deeply committed to liberation and everything that that means in a society, in a global society that is so hell bent on ensuring that liberation is not won. And granted, we're fighting for it in all the things, right? But the existing power, colonial imperialist powers that be, they don't want that for us. In fact, they're doing everything they can to make sure we don't have it. And we see that down to the decisions we have to make to make our money or the decisions we have to make.
to promote our books. I mean, not me, I didn't write one, but generally, right? But you know, I do, the question is, do I want to? I know, I know. You know what? I'm gonna come back to that, because I do have a question about that. But I wanna say, I'm very...
Tamela Julia Gordon (06:57)
Right. You got it in you.
It's a labor. It's very laborious. I'm still not the same.
Mm -hmm.
Weeze (07:18)
This is it's going to be hard for me to talk about this book without talking about this book. I don't want to ruin it for anybody. I think everybody should read it. I think I text you. I was like, I cried. I laughed. This is so beautiful. And it is so. I felt seen. I felt, you know, just all the things I think every single person needs to write. Read this book rather. But I am going to give away a little bit. The fact that you are talking about.
Tamela Julia Gordon (07:22)
Hehehehehe
no.
Weeze (07:48)
not getting on a stage and not being a speaker, considering the hustle and bustle of being in the service industry and the performance that is the service industry. Any of us who have been in the service industry know, like, you know, it is a grand show, especially if you want those tips. And then knowing you in real life, I'm so, it's one of those moments where you're like shocked, like what? Girl, you are meant for the stage. You are meant for.
Tamela Julia Gordon (08:02)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Weeze (08:16)
people to be listening to.
Tamela Julia Gordon (08:19)
You know, I feel like, to be honest with you, I feel like I got off to a rough start with performing. And I've talked to so many other black girls, brown girls that have had this experience where you aim so high because you don't know better. So I always saw myself as a performer, a comedian, or whatever. I always knew I had that thing.
And then until somebody gets in your way and you're like, that's right. There's an exception for me in that place. And so there's a little bit of a pattern with me where I'm always like, well, how close can I get to that star anyway? And food service for me was very much that because it gave me a lot of things that I was looking for at the same time. It gave me the money. It gave me the affirmation that I actually am exceptional.
Weeze (08:57)
Yep. Yep.
Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (09:18)
or else I wouldn't be able to work in this establishment. I wouldn't be able to hold down this position and to be able to, you know, really make a career out of it. Whereas these people, you know, there was some nights when if the white girl next to me was making $75, I might have been leaving with $350 just because of the way that I got down on the floor. So I'm always reconciling what I'm doing. And is it because this was the limit?
as far as I was concerned, or was it because this is what I wanted to do? And when I look at the TED Talk, what I see is someone who felt like this is an alignment with what I want to happen, but not necessarily what I want to do. Because even I think throughout the pages of Hood Wellness, even in my own tone, I could see my character. I can see the performance that I'm able to give with my own words.
Weeze (09:49)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (10:16)
So I know that there's another way that I would probably be able to tickle my pickle on a stage that's not necessarily, you know, in a platform that needs me more than I need them. Because at the end of the day, five years from now, I'm still not going to tell nobody about that Ted talk. And Ted going to be somewhere in San Antonio showing my little black photo, my little five minutes on the stage. You know what I mean? You know how they do with the colleges and they got like eight black kids on there and they all be on the folder.
Weeze (10:29)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, yep. And it's like, hey, look, yep. Mm -hmm. They got us all. We were like the single most diverse panel they've ever had. I don't think, do we have any white people?
Tamela Julia Gordon (10:45)
Right, they got me bro. You know what I mean? So, yeah.
Right?
don't think so. The only white people were the ones that were instructing us to stay on that red circle.
Weeze (10:59)
There wasn't a single white speaker.
Tamela Julia Gordon (11:06)
I believe that was it, you know, I don't remember any in regard of our ensemble cast.
Weeze (11:11)
No, no, just direction, yes.
Tamela Julia Gordon (11:14)
Right, right, right.
As far as I remember.
Weeze (11:21)
Yeah, that was, what a time. We really need a whole other episode. I love the point that you just made, which really is echoed so many times in the book, right?
Tamela Julia Gordon (11:26)
They got it on tape!
Weeze (11:46)
Thinking that you can aim for the stars because the world hasn't kind of slapped you upside the head yet to remind you that things are different, right? You haven't had the moment yet where someone says, your body's not quite the body in whatever way, shape or form, right? Or your look or your whatever it is, right? It doesn't fit the mold of whiteness. And so having to constantly...
Battle with yourself of like, do I keep striving when I've been told that it's impossible? Do I fall into the pitfall or the trap of exceptionalism and trying to then become that version of exceptional? Or do I just hit this status quo real quick and kind of slide through life?
I think it speaks volumes to another piece that you mentioned in the book, right, which is the whole point of community care is the deep importance of surrounding yourself with other marginalized folks, right? And granted, white folks are, you know, rah rah, here to help, all the things, but they're not gonna save us. Like, we're gonna have to save ourselves, so to speak, right? We've always been all we have. And I think that, that to me has been,
Tamela Julia Gordon (12:56)
Bye.
Right.
Weeze (13:12)
the most powerful reminder of reading Hood Wellness, especially for me right now in my own journey of being like, I'm retiring the business and making some shifts and changes and I can't talk to you all about racism anymore because you're just really exploitative and extractive and it is like, and at what cost, you know, for what? But I would love for you to speak to that because obviously you're writing it. I mean, like I could hear you talking, not in the way that like your writing wasn't beautiful, but like,
Tamela Julia Gordon (13:31)
Mm -hmm.
Weeze (13:42)
I could just hear your tone and I could hear you through the words, right? And you're really, you're writing this from your lived experience. So going back to the fact that this was, I mean, you birthed a thing, right? This was a labor. What was that process like? Especially for you, because it's not just like an analytical kind of sociological, you know, reflection of society. This is your life.
Tamela Julia Gordon (14:08)
You know, at first it was supposed to be that, you know, real buttoned up. Yeah, yeah. I had so much of myself out of the book. But by the time, I want to say, like probably when I got signed and I kept revising my proposal to reflect some of the things that I had to went through, like with my teeth and moving and getting in a different pay bracket. And I realized like,
Weeze (14:12)
Really? Okay. I'm glad it wasn't.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (14:37)
I can't really take myself out of this experience. I'm my greatest receipt. And I want to include other voices. One thing I feel like we're both learning, everyone that's been involved in it, is reflection is a luxury when you're in survival mode. You know what I mean? Because I gotta look forward. I don't even got time to feel bad or.
Weeze (14:43)
Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (15:06)
contemplate, be wishy -washy. My life is on the line every day, every time I get up. So, you know what I mean? So a lot of these things that I was revisiting, I was like, wow. That's why I kind of joke, I'm like, is she gonna be okay? Because I'm not looking at it then, you feel me? you were in crisis mode. But as I look back at it, I'm like, that was crisis mode. I might make starvation sound hopeful, but when I was hungry, it was nothing hopeful about it.
Weeze (15:11)
It's not an option. Yeah.
Right. Did she make it? Yeah. Yeah.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (15:36)
So a lot of the revisiting the stories are kind of reconciling who I had to be. You know, I don't want to romanticize poverty. I don't want to romanticize code switching. But I also don't want to be lacking so much nuance that I want to pretend like you don't get anything for doing it. There's a price that you pay to kind of get on that side of full privilege.
Weeze (15:44)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (16:03)
but at the same time to stay away from that side, look at what you don't have. So I think that for me, I don't share myself gratuitously like, ha ha, and then this happened. But I say it because there's a very drastic difference from what my life looked like when I was roughing it on my own and what life looked like when I said I need help. And then what life for others looked like.
Weeze (16:08)
Mm -hmm.
Right.
Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (16:33)
when I was in a position to give it. And I think that we've gotten so, this is my tangent right now, because that's what I feel about. And I know we talked about this before about anti -racism, but unfortunately, it is so manipulative as an industry in how it reduces our work and our intellectual property and all the things that we do. And we're reduced into this one thing.
Weeze (16:35)
Mm -hmm.
Do it.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (17:04)
And you do it because you're like, well, this is what they're listening to. And then six months later, a new wave comes, somebody who makes better reels, somebody who knows more popular people, somebody with more followers. And now you sitting here with that two step that might've got you a blue check, might've got you tens of thousands of fans. And now you kind of, you don't know what to do. So now you're trying to, you know, everybody's rebranding and, and trying to re -figure things out.
Weeze (17:17)
Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (17:32)
on how can I stay relevant, how can I stay on this radar? And the reality is they took what they got from you, they're gone now. They're not coming back on the block. So I think that with Hood Wellness, there is a lot of that reflection on what life looks like for us when we say, this is the thing that I do, and I'm gonna commit to doing it to the people that need it. I'm not going to repackage it so that it is white adjacent.
Weeze (17:41)
Yep.
Nope.
Yep.
Tamela Julia Gordon (18:02)
or white friendly, I don't care about what marketing says, I don't care about who followed me yesterday, who followed me today, this is my work, this is my activism. I really think that when you're rooted in that, it can get a little ugly, but it also gets very real. And so it was a lot why I never wanted to romanticize a lot of the things that I had experienced, but I wanted to be honest for those that do feel stuck, whether it is financially,
creatively or otherwise that like, you know, there's another, you could do this a little different.
Weeze (18:37)
Yeah, I mean honestly that when we read, right, I think this is the beauty of being able to have access to reading and you know, books in the various ways that I mean excess of that. I cannot talk today. In the various ways that I mean are.
Tamela Julia Gordon (18:56)
I mean, 54 % of America, what is it, illiterate I believe it is? Yeah, you know what I mean? So it is a privilege indeed.
Weeze (19:02)
are illiterate, mm -hmm, yeah. Yeah, and so that's what I mean, right? Like not whether it's literacy, whether it's, you know, just, some folks are perfectly literate and based on their geographic locations due to redlining and all sorts of other things don't have access to libraries, don't have access to, right? Like literally can't get books. So for all of those reasons, you know, the privilege of being able to read, well first it's a privilege in and of itself, but for me,
It's always, whatever I'm reading is always going to reflect back to me what I need most. And for me in Hood Wellness, it was that reminder. Because, and again, we've had this conversation, you, me, and Elizabeth have talked about this. You know, the ways in which even when you're really well -intentioned, you're just doing your work, you're doing your thing, you don't even realize how you're being extracted from, or you don't even realize how you've been commodified.
And then you're like, well, they're gone. And I'm still gonna keep doing what I'm doing. But it does. It's like that is that hard decision, right? There are some folks that are staying right and true and on the path. There are some folks that are gonna rebrand because they did it to be equity influencers and not actually just happen to be using, you know, social media.
to amplify or whatever the case may be. But I think that's the most important thing for me that I really took away from this was an affirmation. So this is my thank you to you. This is me giving you flowers, by the way. Is like the affirmation of the choice that I made to remove myself from what became another industrial complex and continue to do my work, but do it specifically within community.
and with the next generation and with the people that are looking for guidance on how just to care for themselves, right, in a system that is not meant to care for us. That was that affirmation of like, okay, this is a, you know, I could easily keep doing what I was doing, but it got to a point where I was like, y 'all are using me. No, thank you.
Tamela Julia Gordon (21:07)
Right.
Weeze (21:23)
You know, and so sometimes you don't even realize that the books you read are written by people you love. So thank you, because I need, my soul, my spirit needed that. The like, no girl, that's the right move. Go do that.
Tamela Julia Gordon (21:39)
Thank you. Because I mean, I've been writing my whole life. And I remember when I got to Miami and it was getting real. And it was like, it was during, I think it was, it was the summertime. So it was definitely during the racial uprising. And I remember I was like, I gotta make some money. And you know, like I gotta start sending out pitches. Like I'm a writer now. Like they need to know about me.
Weeze (21:41)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (22:09)
and I started going through my work and all my shit was like... And the other thing about white women, I was like, my God, I cannot even use this. Like it reminded me of in the 90s when all comedians would be like, you ever notice? Cause that's what Jerry Seinfeld used to do. Or how black comedians used to yell cause that's what Chris Rock used to do.
Weeze (22:36)
Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (22:37)
And that's what I thought about when I was looking at my little stack of medium posts and all of that. And I was like, yo, I'm a real writer. I've always been a real writer. I've never been known to write about one thing. I've always looked at writers like, you know, Candace Bushel, who wrote Sex and the City and all these other little mediocre white writers.
Weeze (22:49)
Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (23:06)
and how they write about whatever they want to write about. I just always be like that. But it was somewhere between 2016 and 2020 where it was like, it was all about whiteness, anti -racism, this, intersectionality, that, and what, that I, but it's not like I was saying what I didn't believe, but it was intentionally and specifically written to white people to educate them, quote unquote, fix them. And it's like,
Weeze (23:24)
Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (23:35)
We would be disingenuous if we act like we didn't notice that a lot of these white people were just learning the lingo, okay? Learning the little two step. First of all, they was using it on each other. They would either make it affect, you guys aren't even gonna make it out the house. You are so ineffective.
Weeze (23:50)
Yo! I'm like y 'all are so mean to each other!
Tamela Julia Gordon (24:03)
in just behavior alone. And so...
Weeze (24:05)
Y 'all spend more time banging on each other about who's writer, you know, and who's committing less harmful white atrocities than actually just... We should have been teaching them to mind their business.
Tamela Julia Gordon (24:09)
I'm not even kidding you, for real. Mm -hmm.
Who's doing it wrong? Who need? Exactly. Mm -hmm.
Weeze (24:24)
Mind your business. We forgot that lesson.
Tamela Julia Gordon (24:29)
That's part of the performance, you know? It's part of the performance. And me showing up, giving them this script, giving them that it doesn't matter what my intention is. The impact is none of us is, nobody in this circle is winning. Not me. My work isn't getting better. I can't even use it. Y 'all are getting goofier. It's like, it's all, it's all bad. Throw it all out. So.
Weeze (24:30)
You forgot the lesson. Yeah, no, 100%. Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (24:58)
I remember a lot of people saying to me, saying, a lot of people said it without saying it. Like, this is a really bad time to, you know, rebrand because all anybody was talking about was racism and what was going on in George Floyd and all of that. And I just could not get into it if I wanted to. I remember I got really weird during that time. It was blowing bubbles and playing crystals and studying the moon.
Weeze (25:15)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (25:26)
I was so disassociated, it was ridiculous. It was ridiculous. But it was necessary because I no longer wanted to be wired to be reactionary to what was going on or what I was seeing in my timeline. And, you know, looking back at it and...
Weeze (25:30)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah, I think that is one of the major reasons that I think a lot of folks...
Tamela Julia Gordon (25:50)
So you know, I'm telling you, the way it impacts your life, I went out dancing with Elizabeth last month and you know, she was someone, it's like me being in Miami, I can't imagine not contacting her. But we were talking about the impact that we had before this was even trending, you know, before this was even trending when we were fucking kids.
Weeze (25:58)
I know, she told me and I was really jealous.
Tamela Julia Gordon (26:18)
So to be in this space where it's like now it is performative and it's supposed to be like my job, it's something where for those of us that are rooted in this work, it is a non -negotiable to continue performing and even presenting in these spaces that we know are not in alignment with our mission. So, you know, I can only hope.
Weeze (26:34)
Yeah.
Is it?
Tamela Julia Gordon (26:48)
that for a lot of people who do have a lot of passion and are being really effective in what they do, that they open up the idea that there's another way and they don't have to actually sacrifice their art or their wellbeing in order to get a movement moving.
Weeze (27:00)
Mm -hmm.
Yep.
Yeah, 100 % or participate in any kind of movements or actually, you know, I've been saying recently, so again, the idea that I've been playing with is like, what level of hypocrisy are we willing to sit with? Because there is, there's hypocrisy in everything, right? And we don't have to participate in our own exploitation.
Tamela Julia Gordon (27:10)
Right.
Weeze (27:30)
and we certainly don't have to participate in our own dehumanization. You're gonna be exploitative, right? I 1 ,000 % believe that we should give all land back. We should rematriate all land. And also, I don't have a solution for how we do that in this society. We could keep following indigenous folks and supporting however they choose to lead us in that mission. And I still gotta sit here and be like,
and I still got to go to the grocery store to buy groceries because I don't know how to live off the land. I would die so fast. I would die so fast. I can believe all of that and still have to participate in structural capitalism because I would die. Right? So all of that being said, I think the way that I look at Hood Wellness is it's this really beautiful love letter.
Tamela Julia Gordon (28:06)
Period. Right.
Weeze (28:29)
to anyone and everyone who exists in a marginalized body who is constantly having to do this dance with society and constantly having to do the dance of, it's almost like it's like the struggle to quote unquote stability dance, right? You could call it success, but success means a lot of different things for a lot of different people. So it's like, how do you do that? And how do you do it in a way that, like you said,
You don't have to sacrifice your wellness. For you, a large part of that was communal care. And I mean, community care is obviously a huge tenant and core of liberation ethos across the board. But how are you currently, and obviously definitions can evolve, right? But in, when are we recording this? May of 2024? How are you currently defining communal care?
Tamela Julia Gordon (29:28)
You know, first of all, I want to return to the, you know, just like the shame that comes with navigating our intersections that we deal with, right? In a lot of these stories, I hope that, I love that how you receive it, and I hope that that's how others receive it, and it helps to divest and kind of de -shame some of these experiences. A lot of the other contributors that I've spoken to kind of feel the same.
Weeze (29:41)
Mmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (29:58)
There's so much vulnerability in this book and it's really meant to divest from that place that says we're supposed to be sad that this happened. We're supposed to be sad that our life is this way, but we don't have to be sad. See, who did you say? Holly, yeah, yeah.
Weeze (30:10)
Yeah.
Holly. Sorry. Yeah, I just Holly. I mean, everybody's stories were but like, I started reading the Holly section with your what she wrote and what she wrote. And like, I might cry again. I was sitting in public and I just it was I mean, it was so beautiful, though, at the same time.
Tamela Julia Gordon (30:40)
Yeah.
Weeze (30:40)
You know, I just, and I don't want to, I'm like, how do I talk about it without talking about it? Cause I don't want to ruin it for anyone. Cause I think it's such a beautiful experience to, you know, be able to read it for yourself, but yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (30:45)
No, it's okay. Yeah.
I think it's important, I love any time that her name comes up. Holly was a woman from California who was dying of terminal cervical cancer and instead of experimental treatment or waiting to get sicker and get into hospice or any of these things, she decided to drive cross country with her husband and son and their pets.
Weeze (30:57)
Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (31:21)
and she wanted to see me in New Orleans. And it was a brief visit. I mean, they were there for like two nights. But it was during that time that she really opened up about not just her experience, but life as she sees it. And it was very important that she was able to share not just, of course, the importance of getting tested.
Weeze (31:29)
Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (31:49)
of course, what to look for in the signs. She gave us such a gift in her own journey through discovering that she had cancer and its remission and its recurrence. But she also gave us some serious insight on what life looks like as you are dying and what joy looks like and how it's still present and how it doesn't abandon you and you don't abandon it. And it's so important because...
Weeze (32:07)
Yeah. Yep.
Tamela Julia Gordon (32:18)
Besides the fact that now her story is eternal, we need to hear that. And there's people out there that need to hear that. I'm so glad you brought her up.
Weeze (32:21)
Yeah.
You cut out that last part there.
Tamela Julia Gordon (32:38)
I was saying, I'm so glad you brought her up.
Weeze (32:40)
yeah. And again, like, there are... I really actually loved... Because I've actually... I don't know that I've seen it done in the way that you did it, like bringing in everybody else's stories to really kind of drive a deeper level of each chapter's point home almost, right? Like when they were introduced. I've never seen that done. And I think it was beautiful on so many levels because...
One, we got to hear from other voices, right? So it really like reaffirms this message that you're getting across. But two, I think about all of the people who have such profound insight to share through their own lived experiences that for a variety of reasons are potentially never going to be able to get published or we don't get to hear from them, right? And so it was also this really beautiful reminder that if you slow down,
you can really learn something from everybody, that everybody has an insight, that everybody has something that can move you and reconnect you to humanity and expand your curiosity. And I don't know if you even intended for that to be the point. What was the thought there? I know I just took us on another tangent, but what was the thought there for you in terms of bringing these other voices in?
Tamela Julia Gordon (34:08)
You know, it's funny because there was more than one occasion when I had to really defend this idea that all these stories were going to go together exactly how I saw it going together. And it was, first of all, I never want nobody to take my word for it. I don't want my lived experience to be the reference.
Weeze (34:22)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (34:35)
on my ideology on community care. I always felt like, I hope the reader understands that they don't even got a vibe with me to appreciate this concept and these people and this collective. And it's why I say that it's even the book itself is such a form of community because it requires all of these different lives, even people that's not alive. You know what I mean? So many different people.
Weeze (34:38)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (35:05)
and experiences to express this is how we move forward with one another when this is the challenge. And everybody want a guidebook, you know what I mean? Everybody want to be told what to do. Everybody wants that prompt at the end of the chapter. Everybody wants to feel better and get a little bit of homework. Right, right. I was like, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. And I've been told...
Weeze (35:22)
Five steps.
Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (35:33)
It's just, it's really a memoir and you should take those stories and put them in the back. You know, put them in the back and make your stories to be in chronological order. and, and I, I would always explain that it's not reliant on my story. You can take any one of my stories and take it out. And that whole section is going to vibe the same. And I can only say from my perspective, right? If you were to give.
Weeze (35:56)
Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (36:01)
three themes of community care, there's a really good chance that it would be different topics. It might look completely different because your life is different. Your needs are different. So the best thing that we can do, you know what I mean, is include other people. So it was always intentional. And if anything, it was one of the biggest challenges was kind of proving that this works and it will work exactly how it's supposed to.
Weeze (36:08)
Is it?
Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (36:31)
And it probably wasn't until the second to last draft when everybody was like, hey, you know, this is kind of a good book. I was like, no shit, bro. You know, like, okay, right.
Weeze (36:41)
You motherfucker. I've been trying to tell you. Look, I'm gonna tell you, I don't know who was in the room trying to tell you not to, but I am so, not just as a reader, right? As a person who loves reading and getting an opportunity to see into the minds of other people in this way through this version of art, but.
as a person who is so deeply committed to liberation all of its ways, this was the absolute right move. I actually think, again, you know I love you and you know that I think you're profoundly amazing and you're a wonderful writer and everything that comes out of your mouth is glorious, mostly, obviously. We gotta leave some space for humanity and because I know you'd be like, that's not true. And I don't know that, to your point, like I don't know that...
It would have hit the same without the additional stories I think that you know, you always talk about like we well not you but like as a society, right? We talked about what does it require when we're looking at writers to create a credible narrator or a credible author when it's like, you know, kind of From your voice and your experience and I don't know that I would have believed that you were really standing ten toes down on community care If you hadn't of
made this, you know, had a communal aspect to the book, right? To your point being like, you don't have to take my word for it. That's just my experience. Like, here's all these other people. And together as a collective, we have birthed, right, this thing. So good job. And I hope people listen to you in those rooms moving forward. And you can send them that. Hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (38:28)
Thank you. Thank you. Right?
Weeze (38:36)
Consumer Review says y 'all was wrong and Tammy was right. But on that note, right, that's why, you know, bringing back to the question, that's why I said in like in May of 2024, how are you personally just for yourself? How are you defining community care?
Tamela Julia Gordon (38:38)
Okay? Right.
Weeze (38:56)
What is it to you right now?
Tamela Julia Gordon (39:01)
You know, it's funny in regard of my communal care because I've always been surrounded by community. You know, I'm the youngest, come from a small town, you know, so everybody know every, you know, I've always been part of communities. And yet I wrote this book during the pandemic when I was quarantining alone. So I came, I,
I moved back to New York and I've been bumping back and forth from New York and Miami since October. And I really like, you know how they say astronauts when they come back to Earth, like their bodies are weird and they need this time. That's how I have felt since I've come back. So for me, community is really just being with my family. It really is getting back grounded.
to who I am, you know, no one is better at helping me stay grounded and recognizing my needs, things like that. So I've been hanging out, you know, occasionally with my friends and just getting back in the earth and shit, you know, like just like enjoying myself. But it definitely looks like time with my family. Someone's birthday has never meant more to me than would it mean.
Weeze (40:18)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (40:29)
I will fly for your birthday. I will buy for your birthday. I will dance for your birthday. Just to be back with my family is like, it just, it kills me. I love it. So that's definitely what it looks like for me right now. And as somebody that's been quarantined for so long, you know, I remember we talked about this back in California about how I can be.
Weeze (40:45)
Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (40:58)
a little bashful when it comes to promotion for the book. And even at this big age of mine, you know, I just turned 42, I'm still reconciling with the reality that, you know, and I think it goes back to food service and performance. There was so long of a period when I had to perform. I think that I've just got this thing in me where I literally cannot do it. I think it's how I got out of anti -racism so quick.
Weeze (41:02)
Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (41:29)
So I love to mention my book. I love a good review. You know, I love when somebody take a photo because they got the book. But at the same time, you know, I feel like I'm selling a book, not Girl Scout cookies. And I can get out here every day and be like, buy my book, buy my book, buy my book, buy my book. You know what I mean? And then you're going to buy the book this one time. It's going to get on the New York Times one week. Everybody going to have the book that week and nobody going to read it.
because they didn't even want to read it to begin with. I made them buy in because I talked about it. I inundated them with it. I believe in my book. I believe in my art. I believe in my mission. So I don't feel so panini -pressed to be out here every day, every week, and out -real myself and talk about it constantly. But I do feel like it needs my support, and I give it that. But it's funny how it even tends to clash with my community care sometimes.
Weeze (42:03)
Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (42:27)
I've had this conversation with white people because they discussed the importance of online promotion. And that sounds great if you are not shadow banned, if you are not a black person, if you are able to act like there are not seven genocides going on, when you are a person that is, you know, a part of community, your community, when you are somebody that people look at not as a product endorser, as a human being.
Weeze (42:43)
going on.
Tamela Julia Gordon (42:56)
that actually provides things with integrity, people that fuck with me would look at me like I'm crazy. If I got up here and started like, you know, by the way, check out this Fashion Nova bathing suit. You know what I'm like, what are we doing? I can't get away with what Colleen Hoover could get away with. I can't use my platform and exploit people that follow me. And you gotta remember,
Weeze (43:10)
Right. Yeah.
Yep.
Tamela Julia Gordon (43:24)
It's people that been donating to get me groceries from five, six years ago. So no, I cannot suddenly take this space where I was being honest about, you know, having severe periodontal disease, being honest about being hungry, being honest about signing a five figure book deal and now just hold everything so everybody can buy five copies of my book. I can't do it. I'm not built like that.
Weeze (43:30)
Right.
Tamela Julia Gordon (43:53)
and it wouldn't be right and that's not even how community works. So, you know, for me right now, it's so funny that community really does look like me sitting my ass down because as I'm about to come back out into this world and talk about this product that I have and at the end of the day, that's what it is. I don't want to fool anybody. It is a book and it's an art.
Weeze (44:05)
and
Tamela Julia Gordon (44:18)
But the second that I begin to start selling it and advocating for it, campaign for it, you know, I am dancing in that little consumerism lane. And I don't want to know those steps and I don't want to mimic that behavior. So I have this obligation to make sure that I'm so grounded that I can promote this with integrity. And then I'm not so thirsty for the clicks and so thirsty to make the list that, you know, I lose sight of that.
Weeze (44:28)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (44:47)
So yeah, believe it or not, community care is definitely still at the forefront.
Weeze (44:55)
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the important piece, right? When you really live this life, when this is really a cornerstone of how you live, the first thing is that you want to make sure you're always doing it with integrity. And then the second thing is it's mutable because what you need at any given moment is going to be different. And so it becomes a practice instead of this like, you know, clear cut rubric, which is also why, like, I mean, sure, you could have put some journal prompts in here. I'm sure you could have figured something out, right?
But I think the point instead is that this is an opportunity to help others just in their inquiry, in their discovery of like, what does that mean to them, right? It's an exposure to a different way of operating and looking at things and thinking about life. I obviously also very selfishly want everybody to read your book. That's why we're talking about it here. And because I'm gonna big you up and cheerlead for you.
from now until Kingdom Come.
Maybe not your biggest. Probably your mom is your biggest cheerleader. Shout out, mom. Hey, mom. Hey, girl. It was so lovely meeting her in L .A. I love her. I love her, too. My mom also, my mom is actually with my grandmother right now. And I told her we were recording. She was like, tell her I said hi. I said, OK, I will.
Tamela Julia Gordon (46:04)
She said hi by the way, she loves some Weeze She really does
Aww, I love how we all hit it off like that.
Weeze (46:22)
I know, I love that our moms love each other and they hit it off and they had a great old time. I was like, not y 'all becoming friends. But, you know, I want everyone to buy your book, but I also think that's a part of community care, right? When you are truly embedded with people that care for you and care for your wellbeing and.
Tamela Julia Gordon (46:25)
Right? Right?
Weeze (46:50)
are so supportive of you in a way that also like if this was a trash book, I also would have been like, Tamela I love you. What happened? You know, I'd be gentle about it. But that's also, you know, like, let's be real. That's also the truth of community. Like somebody who really cares about you is gonna shout your praises from the mountaintops, whether you're present or not, but they're also gonna let you know when you're bugging or maybe it wasn't your best work and like, what happened?
Tamela Julia Gordon (47:01)
Right, right.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Weeze (47:19)
But this is amazing and I want everybody to read it. And so I think you let your community speak for you. I think to your point, yeah, you know, if you was a white girl named Jessica who was not facing shadow banning, maybe that would be a different game if you also had been, you know, faking the funk on your IG for a thousand years, but that's not who you are.
And I think that that's going to shine through because somebody's already winning awards.
Before we wrap up, other than everybody go buy this book, because I think that even if it is not, even if you're already practicing community care, even if you think you're already practicing liberation, I think it is just a beautiful reminder that you're not in this dance, right? We keep calling it a dance. You're not in the dance alone. Like I said, I've been practicing liberation for...
my whole life in different variations. I haven't known any other way. I was radicalized very young, as you know. And this book, sir, was just so serving to my soul. So I think everybody can benefit from reading this. So that is my plug for this book. And before we wrap up, is there anything else that either we didn't mention or we didn't talk about that you want to make sure that you leave with the people in this moment?
Tamela Julia Gordon (48:55)
Yeah, you know what?
activism you do what you got the capacity to do and Instead of comparing You know or trying to save the world and you don't even get you don't even make up your bed that day Just work at your working capacity because You know so so often the past six months. I'll be feeling like this shit even matter
Weeze (49:03)
What's this?
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (49:27)
Why am I talking about this thing with all these other things? And it took a while for me to literally remember that like this work that I do has always been important and it doesn't become unimportant now. You know, I think that we, a lot of us got to find our position. A lot of us got to.
Weeze (49:44)
Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (49:55)
be rooted in our position, a lot of us gotta expand our positions. We're all in different positions, so I wouldn't dare tell anyone to do less if they can do more, or tell somebody to do more if they need to do less. But I really think that, you know.
We should always push the envelope of being of service. And sometimes it starts on your own block. Sometimes it starts with just being a decent human being. But I hope that we remember that, that it all matters. It all adds up in the end.
Weeze (50:31)
Yeah, yeah, there's actually, I really wanna, really want to reinforce this point because I recognize as somebody else who used to do a lot of other stuff on the internet that, and we've talked about this, right? Like this feels, it feels like there's nothing else that we should be talking about other than the seven genocides that are going on in the world and all the other.
various forms of hate that are exploding through policy and law. And you have to care for yourselves. We a lot of times talk about activism or liberation and liberation ethos just through this lens of the actionability. And we ignore the piece that...
you know, the community care, the self care, the rest, the joy, the ease, right? Liberation is not just about doing what we can within our capacity to create space for others in their humanity, but it's also for demanding the full expression of our humanity be accepted, right? It's about making sure that we are tending to ourselves and we're tending to each other.
and we are being gentle with ourselves and we are being gentle with each other and we are really still fully living our lives in the entire spectrum, right? And not denying any parts of ourselves. And so if nothing else, if, because I know there's still some people that are like, I can only read books about things that are going to change the world.
This will make you a better collective community member for sure, but it will also help you in the way that you start to think about how you divest from how hyper productivity has now found itself in our activism and how all of those forms of oppressive dominant socialization are now very much a part of the way that we are being told we're supposed to show up, you know.
in activism, in accompliceship, so on and so forth. So that is a really important point that we gotta leave the people with. Everybody go buy this book. Tammy, I can't wait to see you. No, I'm coming to New York!
Tamela Julia Gordon (53:03)
Same. I'm gonna be out there.
that's right. That's right.
Weeze (53:12)
All right, y 'all. That is all we've got for today. I hope you enjoyed part one and part two with the one and only, Tamela Gordon. All of the links for all of the things are in the show notes. And please be sure to go and pre -order the book. It comes out in June, right? That's when they start dropping them. June 18th. I knew it was June.
Tamela Julia Gordon (53:34)
June 18th.
Weeze (53:36)
Perfect. So get your book now. It'll come out June 18th. And you know, it may or may not be one of our book club books for 2024. So you might as well get it now and start reading it because we are going to discuss it in the collective. Maybe, maybe, Tamela, you'll, you'll come back and you'll join us for that conversation. Maybe. All right. Y 'all heard it. Y 'all heard it. It's happening. All right. I appreciate you so much, Boo. And until next time, y 'all. Peace.
Tamela Julia Gordon (53:46)
Eww.
I would love that.
Hehehehehe
Bye.
BTS + Patreon
Weeze (54:08)
What's your favorite Whitney Houston song and why is it Be My Baby Tonight? And then, because that's mine. But what's your actual favorite, do you have a favorite Whitney Houston song?
Tamela Julia Gordon (54:21)
Do I have a favorite Whitney Houston song?
Weeze (54:24)
And if you don't, how do you feel about Whitney Houston? Because I've recently learned that she's very polarizing.
Tamela Julia Gordon (54:27)
The first one
yeah, but I mean, too, so cool. You know, a lot of people forget that Whitney was forced to assimilate into a whole character. You know, like she used to say all the time, can I be me? You know, like that is such a testament to how trapped she was in that image. So I feel for her. But probably because the thing is that I love Whitney by era.
Weeze (54:41)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Tamela Julia Gordon (54:58)
You know, and as a Black girl, New Yorker, I've got these early day memories of being in the salon on Saturday and hearing all the grownups talk about, she never got with Bobby, starting to act up. And so I would learn, right? And every now and again, I catch a little something in essence. I'm like, who is this with me? So I like the heartbreak era because it was when she could no longer hide the fact that,
Weeze (54:59)
Mmm!
Mm -hmm.
Okay.
Tamela Julia Gordon (55:28)
that she was messy, okay? She was messy, her man was messy. She's like, that's right, I'm getting the numbers, I'm finding out, it don't add up. He said he went out. It was like, wow, Whitney, you are not his baby tonight. Okay? Okay. Right? Okay. She really embodied the more organic side of herself. You know what I mean? It felt like she didn't have to put that air on. Whereas when she had that big ass wig on,
Weeze (55:39)
It's not right, but it's okay.
Mm -hmm.
meh
Tamela Julia Gordon (55:57)
and doing those somebody dance with me baby okay you could just tell that wasn't Whitney that wasn't Niffy but that bitch with the fur coat on okay driving around with Kelly Price okay okay
Weeze (56:00)
Yep.
Yeah. Yep.
That was Whitney. Whitney was hard for real. I'm not like, I don't care. Y 'all, people didn't know Whitney. People knew Whitney Houston.
Tamela Julia Gordon (56:17)
That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Right. Right. They knew Lilith Fair Whitney.
Weeze (56:22)
I'm, yes, yes. I'm actually, I'm looking for that album, cause I know I got it. Do you have a favorite off of it, off Heartbreak Whitney?
Tamela Julia Gordon (56:35)
It probably is that heartbreak song with Kelly Price and Faith in them. Mm -hmm.
Weeze (56:38)
with Kelly Price. Yep.
it up for the people. Yeah.
Tamela Julia Gordon (56:43)
This very R &B X -Men.
forces combined and shit. I really like that.
Weeze (56:48)
This is 100 % it. Let me see, wait.
Tamela Julia Gordon (56:54)
Okay.
Weeze (56:56)
This is it. This album was fire though.
Tamela Julia Gordon (57:00)
Right, and I was in high school. Do nothing about heartbreak or hotel. Okay? Right. Okay. Exactly. Exactly.
Weeze (57:02)
Yeah, did I knew I was gonna say did I know what was happening? Absolutely not. Did I sing it like I did? Absolutely. You couldn't you couldn't have told me I didn't know about finding your credit card receipt.
Tamela Julia Gordon (57:18)
Right. Exactly right.
Weeze (57:21)
Hit that high note and everything.
Okay, well, thank you for playing my little game.